[ayso45-refs] U7B injury/goal and own goals (was: question about un-tied shoes)
Jim Lorenz
JLorenz at sandisk.com
Wed Oct 4 21:23:21 EDT 2006
Hi All,
It is great to see the chatter again on this email list. I love it!
Here are my thought on this one:
One never ever 'calls back' a goal when there is an injury, unless there
was also a foul. It think it is as simple as that.
IF the ref stops play for an injury BEFORE the goal is scored - no goal.
IF the ref stops play for the injury AFTER the goal is scored - it's a
goal.
When to stop play for injury, as Beau says, is a matter of safe/fair/fun
judgement.
If the water is already under the bridge by the time you recognize the
injury (ie. The goal has been scored) don't sweat it. And if you do
sweat it.
BTW:
If there is a foul by the attacker, and then the ball goes into the net,
no goal - regardless of when the whistle is blown.
If there is a foul by the defender, and then the ball goes into the net,
goal - unless the whistle was blown before the goal (Advantage clause -
and a good reason to not be to quick with the whistle.)
It is funny to me - no one should care about own goals in the lower
divisions. Nobody should be keeping score! (but they do - I know). A
Kick-off is just another restart in the young divisions and any parent
who tells you otherwise is focusing on the wrong stuff.
-jim-
-----Original Message-----
From: ayso45-refs-bounces at ayso45.org
[mailto:ayso45-refs-bounces at ayso45.org] On Behalf Of Beau James
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:25 PM
To: Mark Shustock
Cc: ayso45-refs
Subject: Re: [ayso45-refs] U7B injury/goal and own goals (was: question
about un-tied shoes)
Mark Shustock wrote:
> I have a question.... this happened to me on Saturday while I was
> ref'ing a 5 on 5 game...
>
> At mid-field a player kicked the ball straight into the stomach of a
> player on the opposite team. He was trying to clear the ball and
> kicked it hard and high - nothing deliberate. The child that was hit
> remained standing and appeared ok. He was not crying. He appeared
calm.
> However, he immediately started walking off the field under his own
> power. I did not stop play. As he was walking to the sideline the
> other team initiated a fast break and ran down the field (with me
> following) and scored a goal. I allowed the goal to stand. However,
> I could sense that the other team was upset I did not stop play for
> the injury. But, to me, it didn't look like a serious injury. He
> walked off the field under his own power. I think he was just shaken
up and
> didn't know what else to do. And the goal happened so fast - maybe
15
> seconds after the incident.
>
> WHAT SHOULD I HAVE DONE?
There's no strict right or wrong answer to your question.
From your description, it sounds like it was not initially clear to you
that the player felt "injured". One thing you might do in such
situations is to ask the player himself.
His response (or lack of one) may help you quickly assess whether the
player is able to continue playing.
Safety is always our first concern; fairness is the next.
In general, if a player does not obvously need immediate attention, and
is not endangered by the activity on the field, then allowing play to
continue may be appropriate.
It's a judgement call that should be age-appropriate: the ref should
stop play for a non-serious injury more quickly in U7/U8 5v5 play than
in U19 11v11 play. Having one player out of commission in 5v5 has a
bigger impact on the fairness of the match than having one defender out
of commission during her own team's attack on goal at the other end of
the field in 11v11.
> Next question, what about own goals in 5 on 5 games? Should they
> stand or not? I allowed one two weeks ago but someone on the sideline
> who said he was a ref told me (after the game) that I should not have
> let it stand. If not, how should I restart play?
I don't know where the ref-on-the-sideline got his information.
There is no such guidance in the AYSO National Procedures for
Short-Sided games, which Region 45 follows with only a couple of
region-specific variances:
* Region 45 choses to use goalkeepers even in U7 and U8 matches
* Region 45 has split the AYSO National "U8" division into separate
U7 and U8 divisions, due to numbers of players. U7 plays 5v5
(consitent with AYSO National U8 guidelines), but in region 45,
U8 plays 7v7.
If you happen to run into this referee again, and can get a reference
for his "no own goals" comment, I'll be happy to investigate further.
Beau
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Luskin <luskin at pacbell.net>
> To: Robert L. Henderson <bob at starshippilot.com>; ayso45-refs
> <ayso45-refs at ayso45.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 2, 2006 11:52:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [ayso45-refs] question about un-tied shoes
>
> The problem is, due to the wonders of Velcro, many children do not
> know how to tie their own shoes. I believe they figure it out before
> they graduate from High School, but whereas in the old days every
> child knew by 5 years old, even at the U9 level a significant number
of children do not know how.
>
> So it is not a matter of simply telling/yelling to the child to tie
> his shoes when he has a chance. Rather an adult is needed. A referee
> can't ref while he is tying a shoe. Further, if a ref decides to risk
> ignoring play for a minute to tie a players shoe while play is away
> from the child, while you are in the middle of tying play can return
> to the player. This then has the effect of putting the players team
> down a person as the player is rooted in place while their shoe is
> being tied. Plus the risk and problems associated with ref being
unavailable for a minute or so.
>
> Another option is to send the child to the sideline for a coach or
> parent to tie their shoe while play continues. This has the
> unfortunate effect of putting the team down by one player. And if the
> child happens to be a critical defender, it might end up being the
> reason another team scores a goal.
>
> Of course, one can reason that if the opposing team scores a goal
> because a child is involved in having their shoes tied that is their
> penalty for not taking care of it properly in the first place. But,
> as the child is likely not who tied their shoe in the first place,
> this does not seem to conform to "safe, fun, and fair". In
particular, not fair, as well as not fun.
>
> So, with lots of ignorance, I would suggest that for some age groups
> (perhaps U9 and below) that some stop of play be allowed for tying of
laces.
> If the problem seems out of control, such as maybe more than one or
> two stoppages in a half, then the ref could tell the coaches that the
> next time it occurs a player will be sent to the sideline for a coach
> or parent to handle the problem and play will not be stopped.
>
> Regards,
> David Luskin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ayso45-refs-bounces at ayso45.org
> [mailto:ayso45-refs-bounces at ayso45.org]
> On Behalf Of Robert L. Henderson
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:29 PM
> To: thad at yahoo.com; ayso45-refs
> Subject: Re: [ayso45-refs] question about un-tied shoes
>
> Generally, there is no need to stop play unless you feel the player is
> in immediate risk. The player should be told to tie the shoe and
can
> do this while play is away from that player, such as at the other end
of
> the field. If play has stopped (for a throw-in, free kick, etc),
you
> may hold up the restart to allow the player to deal with the shoe.
>
> Thad White wrote:
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > I have another question about stopping the game for untied shoes.
> I assume > that this is ok since it is an unsafe condition. But I
> don't remember any > specific training on this. Could you just
> confirm that this is reason for > stopping play and then resuming
> with a no-fault drop ball?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Thad
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Bob Henderson
> Starships piloted
> Dragons slain
> Soccer Refereed
>
>
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